Software Sales Tips by Matt Wolach

Scale Your SaaS

Growing Like a VC-Backed Company: Lead Generation Insights from Matt Wolach


Recently, I had the honor of joining the podcast as a guest. I delved into my expertise in lead generation, pinpointed common mistakes, and highlighted opportunities that many businesses overlook. 

Growing a software company without the backing of investors can seem daunting, but I provide you with a clear path to success. I focused on building a performance business that scales effectively while maintaining freedom for the founders. If you’re grappling with lead generation challenges, this article is for you.


Podcast: The Scale Up Show

Episode: “4 Step Closing Framework for Exponential Results with Matt Wolach”

Guest: Matt Wolach, a B2B SaaS Sales Coach, Entrepreneur, and Investor

Host: Ryan Stanley, Founder and CEO of Whale Boss


Understanding Your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)

One of the most significant issues in lead generation is a lack of understanding of the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). Companies often fail to grasp who their target audience truly is, which hinders their ability to market effectively. If we don’t know exactly who we’re trying to sell to… it’s going to be really hard to convince that person to take action to book a call.

Key Steps to Define Your ICP:

  • Identify Demographics: Know the age, gender, job role, and industry of your ideal customer.
  • Understand Their Pain Points: What keeps them up at night? What are their biggest challenges and goals?
  • Analyze Behaviors: Where do they hang out online? What kind of content do they consume?

I cannot stress enough the importance of nailing down these details to build better products, create more effective marketing messages, and improve sales conversations.

Persistence in Lead Generation Efforts

Another critical point I highlighted is the lack of persistence in lead-generation strategies. Many companies give up too soon, particularly with methods like SEO. If you do SEO for two weeks or a month, and nothing’s really happening… people quit. And they stop creating all this amazing blog content.

Tips for Consistent Lead Generation:

  • Commit Long-Term: Understand that strategies like SEO and content marketing take time. Patience and consistency are key.
  • Track Progress: Regularly analyze what’s working and what isn’t. Adjust your approach based on data and feedback.
  • Stay Engaged: Continually refine your methods and stay updated with industry trends and algorithm changes.

Leveraging LinkedIn for Lead Generation

LinkedIn remains a powerful tool for business networking and lead generation. We discussed the platform’s evolving algorithm and the need to adapt to its changes. Despite some frustrations, I believe that LinkedIn is still highly effective, especially for targeting professionals in specific industries.

Maximizing LinkedIn’s Potential:

  • Post Regularly: Maintain a consistent presence with valuable content tailored to your audience.
  • Engage with Your Network: Comment, like, and share relevant posts to increase your visibility.
  • Monitor Algorithm Changes: Stay informed about platform updates to adjust your strategy accordingly.

Choosing the Right Channels Based on Deal Size

Automation and volume are crucial for lower deal sizes, whereas higher deal sizes require a more personalized approach.

Strategies by Deal Size:

  • Low Deal Size: Use automated processes and mass outreach to maximize reach.
  • High Deal Size: Focus on personalized messages and in-depth research on potential clients.


The Future of SEO and AI

With the rise of AI and large language models, the landscape of SEO is changing. I believe SEO will continue to be essential, but businesses need to be smart about leveraging AI tools. So avoid blindly using technology without understanding its impact.

Embracing SEO and AI:

  • Quality Over Quantity: Ensure content remains high-quality and relevant, even when using AI tools.
  • Stay Informed: Keep up with changes in search algorithms and AI developments.
  • Optimize for Humans: Remember that ultimately, your content needs to resonate with human readers, not just search engines.

Forums and Other Social Media Platforms

After all, there is still effectiveness of other social media platforms and forums, in addition to LinkedIn. Understanding where your audience spends their time online is crucial for successful lead generation.

Utilizing Other Platforms:

  • Facebook Groups: These can be gold mines if you find the right groups where your audience is active.
  • Slack and Discord Communities: Industry-specific communities can provide valuable insights and direct connections.
  • Traditional Forums: Old-school message boards can still be effective for certain industries.

Common Mistakes and Opportunities in Lead Generation

To wrap up, the biggest mistake founders make is doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. The best approach is to focus on strategies that align with your company’s current stage and resources.

Biggest Opportunities:

  • Tailored Strategies: Develop lead generation tactics that suit your specific business needs and market conditions.
  • Continuous Learning: Stay agile and adapt to new tools, platforms, and methodologies.

By understanding your ICP, staying persistent, leveraging the right platforms, and adapting to technological changes, you can overcome common challenges and seize new opportunities.

Transitioning Out of Founder-Led Sales

Helping founders transition out of founder-led sales, a crucial step for scaling a business is my lifelong mission. This transition involves:

  • Delegating Sales Responsibilities: Empowering a dedicated sales team to take over the sales process.
  • Implementing Effective Sales Processes: Establishing standardized sales procedures to ensure consistency and efficiency.

The Importance of Persistence and Adaptability

A recurring theme in my programs is the need for persistence and adaptability. Businesses must be willing to commit to long-term strategies and continually refine their approaches based on data and feedback.


  • Commit to Long-Term Strategies: Understand that results take time and stay the course.
  • Refine and Adapt: Regularly review and adjust your strategies to stay ahead of the curve.


  • Stay Updated with Industry Trends: Keep abreast of algorithm changes, consumer behavior, and new tools.
  • Leverage New Technologies: Embrace AI and other technological advancements to enhance your lead generation efforts


By understanding your ICP, committing to long-term efforts, leveraging the right platforms, and staying adaptable, you can navigate the challenges of lead generation and achieve sustained growth. Whether you aim to build a lifestyle business, a performance business, or an empire, these strategies will help you grow like a VC-backed company without taking on investors.



Matt Wolach

[04:18] “If we don’t know exactly the person that we’re trying to sell to… it’s going to be really hard to convince that person to take steps to take action to book a call.”

[7:10] “If you do SEO for two weeks or a month, and nothing’s really happening… people quit. And they stop creating all this amazing blog content.”

[10:50] “LinkedIn is a very powerful tool. People come to my LinkedIn, they get a lot of great information. They also connect with me, they see how I can help.”

[25:15] “The biggest mistake is just doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. Sometimes we hear, ‘Oh, I heard about this company that did this amazing thing, I’m going to start doing that.’ Well, that company is 10x your size.”

Ryan Stanley

[14:05] “You get a 3% bump if you post organically and not through a scheduling tool, so you get like 3% more reads if you just manually post.”


For more about how Matt Wolach helps software companies achieve maximum growth, visit

Head over to and sign up for a 14-day (no strings attached) free trial: 

Check out the transcript here:

4 Step Closing Framework for Exponential Results – Part 1

Ryan Staley  00:10

What is happening? We have Matt wolach on today, who is the CEO of Excellus. Matt breaks down some really interesting things. He is the coach many SaaS founders, specifically on closing and demo conversion, gets really deep into a framework that he uses that helped him create exponential growth. And I love the breakdown, hyper tactical, super punchy. Matt did an awesome job before singing in the episode. How do you grow like a VC backed company without taking on investors? Do you want to create a lifestyle business, a performance business or an empire? How do you scale to an exit without losing your freedom? Those are the questions, and this show is the answer. What is happening everybody? This is Ryan Sealey here for the scale up show, and I have a very special guest with me today. I have Matt wolach, who is the CEO of Excellus, which is successful B to B sales coaching organization, helps companies double their close rate in just a matter of weeks. Also takes a really results driven approach. Got to know Matt just through similar circles and really impressed with what he does. So Matt, happy to have you on the show. Man, looking forward to coming forward to cutting this up with you. Thanks,

Matt Wolach  01:24

Ryan. I’m super excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah,

Ryan Staley  01:27

I mean, like, I appreciate what you’re doing. You put out great content. Had the pleasure of being on your show, and I’m happy to be on my show to kind of flip the mic around and just get into, you know, some of the ninja magic work that you’re doing with organizations, right? And so why don’t you give us just a really quick backdrop on you, what you’re passionate about, what you’re focusing on, and then we’ll get right into it, man, because there’s some there’s some fire. I’m sure that you’re gonna drop, I’m gonna pick your brain, and we’re gonna get deep on this stuff and nerd out on everything and everything that is sales. Cool,

Matt Wolach  02:01

man. Yeah, happy to so it’s funny because I just talked with a guy today who is basically me 17 years ago. He’s a struggling software founder. He’s got a great product, but can’t figure out exactly how to make it work in terms of getting people to buy it. He’s getting plenty of opportunities. He’s generating leads. He’s just not able to convince them to actually pull the trigger, and it just reminded me so much of my own journey. So launched our first software product. Was very excited about it. Great product, great tool. It’s going to help the market, and nothing. Couldn’t really generate leads. Couldn’t really get people excited about it. It was frustrating. And so I figured, hey, we got to keep pushing. I’ve got to find a way. And started pulling all sorts of different techniques and tactics and everything I could learn from from experts around the globe. At that time, in the mid 2000s there wasn’t really any SAS veterans. It was a brand new thing. And so I didn’t have a SAS expert I could just call up. And fortunately, I was able to figure it out through grinding and through just figuring it out, took quite a while, but once I figured it out, we took off, started scaling, being 500 multiple years in a row, and went exponential, and eventually had some some nice exits out of that. So it was a it was a crazy initial start, and once we found that right process for being able to close those deals, for being able to get people excited about what they could what they could do with your product. That’s that really turned the tide for us, and I’m glad it did. Now what I do is I basically helped others understand exactly how we did that, and so they can implement it themselves. They can go off and create amazing valuation and get amazing exit themselves,

Ryan Staley  03:41

awesome, man. And what was the deal size like when you experienced that? Like, what was the deal size, velocity? All those kind of details, so that we have some context, and what were you actually selling? Yeah. So

Matt Wolach  03:53

deal size was anywhere from 5k a year up to 20 or 30 on average. But we would have some that were very big, much bigger than that as well. The product was an electronic medical record, so in the medical space, but it was, it was a fun thing. It was, it was a lot of learning, learning how to incorporate myself into an industry that I had no previous experience in, learning how to manage a team and grow a sales team. We grow that sales team over 30 people, and really trying to figure out, how are we going to do this sales thing? How are we going to get people to be excited for this product? So it was, it was a ton of fun, lot of learning, and really glad that I went through it. Awesome.

Ryan Staley  04:38

So let’s talk about the process you mentioned, because obviously, I think there’s, there’s, I’m big believer in process with with sales, specifically for people, right, internal and external, however, like, what’s the magic process that you kind of discovered and help organizations with to bring the same results that you had When you did this when you built a team?

Matt Wolach  05:02

Yeah, for sure. So in my early days, and what I see a lot of newer leaders and software people doing is you people say that, hey, I want to look at your product. And so basically, you instantly, okay, let me just show you how cool this thing is. And look at all these amazing drop downs and reports. And look at this. Look at this. You kind of just, I call it vomiting your product on the prospect. And it took me a long time to realize that that not the right way to sell. It’s not the right way to actually make things happen. You have to be much more consultative. You need to understand what they’re going through. And so the process to answer your question is something I created kind of after several iterations over the years, that is now called the perfect deal process, D, E, A, L is an acronym because those are the steps you go through in order to get the sale to happen. So the D is for discovery, and you know how really important that is, right about that, but discovery is something that a lot of people either skip or don’t do nearly well enough or nearly strong enough. And with discovery, we we’re not just trying to find if they’re a fit for us, which is important. We need to make sure that they’re a fit Absolutely. You don’t want to sell to people who are but if you go deeper than that, you start to realize that it’s more than that. With discovery, we can get them to connect with us. We can get them to realize that we know what we’re talking about. And some people say, Well, how can you do that if you’re in discovery? Well, if you’re talking to a vertical, you’re in an industry, and you’re saying things that include the lingo from that industry, and the questions you ask are very specific about that industry. They’ll know that you get it, that you understand this industry, without you even saying, I’m a veteran, I know what I’m talking about, and so just the questions we ask and how we ask, how we follow up with their answers, you can explain or show them that you’re a veteran, you know what you’re talking about, but the most important one of that is getting the buyer to realize they’re really, really pain. And so if a buyer just feels like I just want to kind of check this out. They’re not going to take action. People don’t take action from I want to check this out. They take action from pain. They take action from hate, from doing something that they realize is so backwards and terrible that they have to move away from it. And so what we need to do within that discovery process is help the buyer understand just how bad things are. If we can kind of get them to realize that things are not good we fix it, then it’s going to make it so much easier for them to know that they need to take action, that they need to do something to fix it. And there you are. You’ve got a product. You tell some stories about how that product can help. The rest is history. So in this process, I learned discovery was fine. Okay,

Ryan Staley  07:52

hello, this is Ryan here real quick. If you are enjoying this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a comment or review. If you want more help or just want to learn more about what the top SAS CEOs and founders are doing, check out my website at WWW dot Ryan, join my newsletter to check out other free content resources I have there and let me know if you want to scale your business now. Back to the episode. What about the E and A and the L?

Matt Wolach  08:23

Sure, so E is educate. One of the things that a lot of people didn’t realize back when I was kind of forming this process was we don’t really need to educate buyers. In fact, the line of thinking that was really common was an educated buyer is more likely to leave you but actually, MIT Sloan did a store study that says that educated buyers actually are more likely to stay so I believe these world It sounds crazy, but back then, nobody really wanted to educate their buyer. Now we do. So we need to educate the buyers on a few things. We can educate them on shifts that are happening in the industry that they need to know about. A lot of times they’re really focused on their own company and what’s going on. They don’t think about kind of the forest for the trees, we need to educate them on our background and what we can do and how we person. We need to educate them on the company founding. A lot of buyers don’t care about how big the company is now how amazing your client list is, but they do care about how the company came to be. So a lot of things we work on with our clients are let’s come up with your company founding story. Because if you can tell that founding story and talk about, let me tell you about this guy, Steve. And he was really frustrated that he couldn’t do this, or that he couldn’t find anything on the market that did it, and so he decided to build it, and realized that other people can use this as well. He went out and other people decided, hey, we want to use it too. And that’s how the company was born. You tell that story, obviously with a little more beef than what I said, but that now connects a pair to a person, as opposed to connecting them to a brand, which people don’t connect with brands and connect with people. So it makes it a lot easier for them to root for you, and by rooting for you, they choose your product. So the E is very critical. We need to educate our buyers throughout the entire process, but especially within that whole sales call process, demos, discovery, all that stuff. So we’ve got discover. We’ve got the E, which is educate, and then the A, which is associate. Associate is now where we can associate our tool to their problems, to their pain, to their struggles. So once you’ve discovered all of this stuff, take your solution, how you solve these problems, and connect it directly to them. Get the buyer to realize just how bad things are, and then get them to realize that this thing is what solves it. And once you’ve gotten them emotional about the problem, now they see a solution. It makes it really easy for them to say, yes, I want it. They don’t even do a lot of betting on a lot of my clients realize, holy cow, once I get discovery really good and I kind of connect the dots on each of those panes to the way it gets solved with my tool, I don’t really have to do a lot else extra. And it’s amazing how kind of easy, simple that associate that demo process comes to be one of my he was at a 1.9% close rate. We identified that the discovery was way off. It just wasn’t doing enough. And once he learned that, then he said his discovery got so good that he spent like five minutes in the tool showing how it worked because he did such a good job up front, getting them realizing they hate their pain. He said they were 90% closed after discovery. So it’s pretty amazing that even before they saw anything, they already wanted the product. It’s just a matter of saying, okay, you’ve got something that fixes this horrible thing you just exposed for me. Yes, let’s just do it. That’s fine, and it’s pretty cool. And that happens. So the A is associate. We need to connect our tool to their their problems. L, L is lead. That’s the last one. And lead, of course, not talking about generating leads, which is important, but more about let’s take the lead. Let’s take charge. Let’s be in control. So many times with buyers, and I’m reviewing demo calls for my clients, and you’ve got a sales rep who says things like, yeah, so what should we do next? The buyer doesn’t know what to do next. They have no clue. They’ve never been through this process. Even if it’s a type A buyer who seems very forward and very much in control, they still have no idea the best way to understand what your product can do to help them. We need to be in control as sellers. And if we can do that, then buyers are going to want to follow you. They’re going to want to be a part of what you’re doing. They’re going to want to take that, that stuff that you have, and go nuts with it. So make sure we are always in control. Make sure that we’re the ones guiding the process. Be that consultant, be that advisor, and help them understand how they can fix their problems. So that’s it, d, e, a, l, discover, educate associated love

Ryan Staley  12:45

that man. Really good job of explaining the framework, you know that being so true, just from all my experiences and what you’re talking about like I sat down with a It was basically a senior director who had a $60 million budget at Lowe’s home improvement, and he basically said that, it’s like, Ryan. He’s like, your team does a really good job. And I’m like, why is that? What do you think? You know they do such a good job? He’s like, because 90% of sales reps that come in here, even though I have that big of a budget, they don’t understand my industry. They don’t understand what I’m trying to do. They don’t understand, like, what a publicly traded company is going through. And your team understood all three of understood all three of those. So, like, that’s exactly what you’re talking about when it comes to that understanding, that connection, that trust, all that comes because they’re like, Hey, man, this person knows what I’m doing, you know? So, yeah, I mean, what? Let me ask you this, like, because this is something that I think certain companies do a great or people and companies do a great job at is like when it comes to the pain, right? Like identifying the pain. You know, what are some of your favorite questions to ask that are pain related questions? They really organically unearth, you know, the pain that people have, they can be associated with your solution.

Matt Wolach  14:02

Yeah. I mean, it’s good question, because a lot of times people say, Okay, I need to find pain. So let me just ask them, What are your challenges? What? What are your problems with pain? And you may get some good answers there, but I find the best answers to your point come from process based questions. So it’s not just ask what their process is, but actually know your market. So you should totally understand your ICP, your ideal customer profile, and if you totally understand your ICP, then you should know what do most of these people suck at? What are they bad at? Or what are they not doing? Well, of course, your product solves those things. That’s why you built the product. That’s why it’s there. But we want to ask questions around those things. It’s almost like I already know that this is going to be terrible. Now, what a lot of experience sales reps do? They have what’s called the curse of knowledge. They know it’s going to be terrible, so they don’t ask about it, because, like, it’s probably terrible. I’ll just explain how we’re going to fix it. But the problem is, discovery is as much for your buyer as is for you, and so if we skip that piece, then they’re never going to realize how bad things are. Instead, we know it’s going to be bad. Ask about ask a question, hey, tell me when this happens. What do you guys do? And invariably, they’re going to say, Oh, that’s a terrible day. I hate it when that happens, because then we have to do this. We have to grab Mary, and she has to come in and plug this in, and she has to do that. Who’s Mary. What’s her role? How much? How much is she making? How long does it take her? Oh, wait, you’re talking calculate. Calculate. You’re spending $40,000 a month on this thing. Is that? What is that? What’s happening? Holy cow. And when you can get to that level of detail, they’re not going to have done these calculations. They’re not going to have realized how bad this is. And when you can do it with them, and they realize, holy cow, I never realized it was that bad. I knew it was bad. Didn’t understand the full scope of it. First of all, now they’re going to see you as an advisor and a consultant. And second of all, they now have $1 figure showing how bad things are. And guess what, your product is likely a lot less than that dollar figure, meaning, when you get to the pricing discussion, it’s not even going to be an issue. They all have been spending way too much money problem, and now you can come in and solve it for a lot less. So it works really, really well. Yeah,

Ryan Staley  16:11

those are great examples, man. And I love how you systematically break it down to the tangible ROI components, right, whether it’s not just money, but time, right, time and motion and people doing it, that’s what a lot of people walk right by. And I’ve seen it really big company, where they really struggle with it too. So it can’t even break it down. So I think this is a natural spot to stop. Next section, I should say, or I should say next podcast episode, the continuation of this, the part two, we’re going to get more into lead gen, some of those common mistakes and challenges that folks have so but before we do that, Matt, where can people find you? Where can they learn more about you? And then we’ll wrap things up for today,

Matt Wolach  16:59

sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m very active there. Matt wolach, M, a, t, t, w, O, L, A, C, H. You can also go to my website, Matt where I have free giveaways, like a scorecard, where you can put in your metrics. You know, calculate automatically what you are and how you compare to benchmarks. You know where to focus.

Ryan Staley  17:17

Love that. Well, thanks for being on Matt. It was pleasure having you. I love your depth of knowledge and how granular you get, because that devil’s in the deal. That’s what really moves the needle is when you know those fine aspects. So thanks for being on today. Man,


thanks. Man, really appreciate it, right? Excellent, and we

Ryan Staley  17:33

will see you on the next episode. Thank you for checking out the scale up show. My mission in life is to help founders and revenue leaders, avoid all the pain and suffering in revenue growth, they flip it and create a life of their own design. So,


if you enjoyed this show. Please like, review, sharing on social. And more importantly, to share with a friend, share with someone that you think could learn and what you heard on today. But the more we.

4 Step Closing Framework for Exponential Results – Part 2

Ryan Staley 00:13

What is going on? This is Ryan, I have Matt Wolach part two on today. And we get into the biggest mistakes, gaps and challenges that companies have with lead generation how to fix it specifically with everything that is going on today, the biggest pitfalls and opportunities for 2004. And I think you’ll really enjoy it because many people do not know what we talked about today. And I think you’ll find some new stuff in there. So anyways, thanks for checking us out today. And we will see you in the episode. How do you grow like a VC backed company without taking on investors? Do you want to create a lifestyle business, a performance business or an empire? How do you scale to the exit without losing your freedom? Those are the questions and this show is the answer. This is Ryan and I am back with Matt Wolach. For part two, Matt is the CEO of Excellus. He does specific coaching for founder led sales and helping them transition out of founder led sales as well. Specifically in areas like closing demos, one of the things that we’re going to talk about too, that he does a great job as lead gen. And so Matt, welcome. Happy to have you back on for part two, man.

Matt Wolach  01:27

Thanks for I appreciate it. This is so much fun. I love talking to stuff with you with your with the way you think and how you approached off. It’s just super awesome.

Ryan Staley 01:34

Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate it. You as well. It’s it’s great to appreciate another craftsman in the space, if you will. Right, a grizzled veteran on top of it. So. So let’s get into it. I think like, you know, one of the things that we were talking about before as we’re getting ready for the show, is this lead gen and you know, kind of how it works challenges people have, I would love to bring that offline conversation to share with everybody. So like, what’s your take on that? And what do you see as the biggest challenges with companies today, specifically in SAS as Fe, SAS, but with lead? Gen? What are the most common problems?

Matt Wolach  02:12

Yeah, it’s great point, I think most problems in lead gen. Always go back right to the very beginning that we’re we don’t truly understand our ICP our ideal customer profile, if we, if we don’t know exactly the person that we’re trying to sell to. And in terms of Legion market to, if we don’t understand what keeps them up at night, what they’re worried about what they hate what they love what they’re trying to do, it’s going to be really hard to convince that person to take steps to take action to book a call. So we need to get really good at that. That’s why week one right away, when my clients start with me, we focus on their ICP, what is the ISP, let’s get detailed, Let’s nail this down. Let’s get all the way down to the nitty gritty. And let’s understand that fully. Because ICP not just with Legion, but also it helps you build out the product towards that person. The marketing, the messaging, the sales conversations are much better when you understand that. Because I have a lot of people who come to me and they say, Oh, we’re trying to generate leads here. It’s not working. And when we start to dive into their ICP, we realize, well, your clients aren’t even there. You’re posting on Facebook, nobody’s there, like your whole market, there’s no, no wonder it’s not working, because you’re spending money on these ads on a platform where you don’t even have your market there. And I know that sounds basic and stupid, but it’s amazing how many times it happens. And I would say also another problem. The other issue is almost the opposite issue, where they do the right thing with the right technique and everything, but not long enough. So for example, SEO, if you do SEO for two weeks or a month, and nothing’s really happening, you’re not getting any inbound leads, it’s just not generating any demos for you or something. People quit. And they stop doing that. And then they stop creating all this amazing blog content. And so a lot of the stuff that we see is that people are doing the right thing just not long enough or persistent enough for consistent. They say I’m going to start posting, I’m sorry, posting on LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter every day. And they do it for a week or two. And they get like two likes, and they’re like, Okay, well that’s not working. It takes a lot longer than that. So some of the things that we do in lead gen are going to be a much longer commitment than a few weeks or a month. And we need to stay with it. We need to get there. One of the things that happens when you stay with it is that you also get better you start to realize what’s working what’s resonating, what’s making results with getting impressions. And you start to realize how you can improve but it takes a long time. Like my LinkedIn is a very powerful tool. People come to my LinkedIn they get a lot of great information. They also connect with me they see how I can help. I think we met there to Ryan Yeah, but took me a year to just get it to a point where I started to get some some people coming to me it takes a long time. So, so many times people are doing something great. It’s just not long enough or persistent enough?

Ryan Staley 05:09

Well, let’s talk about that. And let’s talk about LinkedIn. Because I think it’s probably the best business network out there. And I have mixed feelings about LinkedIn. Like I love some of the things that LinkedIn has and the capabilities, right. However, like, the time and how fast they change things, you can tell they’re heading in a different direction. And, and some of that’s aligned, I think, with their users, some of that’s aligned with their earnings. Right. And so what’s your take on it, man? I mean, you’ve been on the platform a long time like me? What’s your take on it? Because I’m seeing it’s so funny, I’ll see posted or blow up. But I won’t see that consistent, and then I’ll see posted a really low, right, so I’ll see both sides of it. I think before there used to be more consistency and reach. But I’d be curious what your take is on that.

Matt Wolach  05:56

Yeah, I totally agree. I think they’re trying to fiddle with the algorithm trying to make it fit for what their goals are internally. And I would agree, we’re seeing that as well, it did used to be much more consistent a year or two ago, you would post similar types of things. And you would get about the same level of results on everything. And you’re right, every now and then you have one pop. But you really wouldn’t have any that are much lower, they will all be fairly consistent. But now you’re right. I think there’s some that do great, and some that are just complete duds. And you have no idea why. So I don’t know why that’s happening. I don’t know what they’re trying to do. But I do know that we’re trying to constantly evolve. And our team is constantly tracking all of this data. Every time we post we know exactly what happened and what the results were and and we’re trying to figure out what that is that that is that weird piece of the algorithm or what have you that can make a difference and does start to get good results. Because we know there’s a lot of people out there that need our help. And we’re just trying to reach.

Ryan Staley 06:56

Yeah, I agree, man. And there’s still some awesome things about the platform. I’ve met some amazing people. It’s funny, I had a talk to one of the biggest a member of a team and one of the biggest producers on LinkedIn that’s growing the fastest right now. And, and like you told me, like one of the insider things is like you get a 3% Bump, if you post organically and not through a scheduling tool, so you get like 3% More reads If you just manually post. So there’s little things like that, that they changed. Like, it’s kind of like a head scratcher. It’s like, okay, are they? Why would you do that? Like, what was the value in that? Right? So anyways, so let me ask you this of the social media platforms for lead gen, like what are you most excited about and leaning into the most today for you and your business?

Matt Wolach  07:44

I mean, it’s still LinkedIn for us. I mean, for me, if you talk to me about my coaching, I target software leaders, founders, sales leaders, executives around sales and marketing and growth. And all those people are wanting to be on LinkedIn for their own purposes. So since they’re there, it’s me. But that’s because I really understand my market. There are others that I work with many of my clients who Facebook is the best thing for others, Twitter is the best thing for others, YouTube is a fantastic tool for them. So it’s it’s really, truly identifying where does your market live? I have some clients that they’re on on any of those, but they do go to forums online, and they all talk internally in these forums. And they’re sharing all kinds of stuff that gold for my clients. So they’re in those forums. And so it’s really all about that is really understanding, where are they? Where are they really hanging out online? And how can we get there and get in front of

Ryan Staley 08:39

what kind of forums anytime like Reddit? Are you talking slack communities? That’s kind of the key forum areas,

Matt Wolach  08:44

they come in, I always say even even like industry specific forums, like real tour forums and forums, like, yeah, yeah, like people are getting vertical tight on those. And you just go into these things. And if you can get in sometimes they’re pretty tough to get an invitation. But then that’s where people are unloading all their problems. And it’s gold is basically like a Facebook group that’s not in Facebook.

Ryan Staley 09:08

Yet, what are you talking Reddit, though? Like, what platforms? Do you see them?

Matt Wolach  09:13

No, I mean, I’ve even seen someone like the old school, like message board type stuff, like some of these are old enough that they still have, oh, yeah, people are still using that. But yes, Slack discord, those are more common now. And then, of course, Facebook groups like Facebook groups, if you’re not in there for your industry, you’re missing out. There is a lot of junk in Facebook groups, you definitely have to kind of filter through the noise. But if you can find some good groups where they’re sharing good information, real people are actually posting their problems. Those are those are true.

Ryan Staley 09:43

Okay. So so that’s good. So then, you know, like live, let’s change gears a little bit on the lead gen sites. I totally agree. It’s like, where your clients are doing a consistent. What do you think about selecting where you focus your time, energy and Money in terms of deal size, like how does that correlate to the different channels?

Matt Wolach  10:04

Yeah, great point. So deal size does matter, especially if you’re doing anything outbound. If you’re doing anything outbound, you need to understand your deal size, meaning, if it’s a lower deal size, you need to do something that’s more automated, more mass focused, right? If you’re selling 100 200 bucks a month type of stuff, you need to get a lot of volume. And it’s really important to set up processes and sequences and automations that are going to help you get to that volume. If you’re selling something that’s $100,000, doing something at volume or mass is not going to give you the the necessary, you know, numbers that you need to make it work, you absolutely should be much more personalized, you should spend time before reaching out to a prospect, understanding what they’re all about understanding what their industry is all about their company, or their goals themselves, or what they’ve done. And you’re gonna have a lot better success actually connecting with people when you have a truly personalized message that isn’t automated. But again, you can’t do that if you’re selling $100 $200 product a month, because it just, you would spend so much time that would really make sense. We talked earlier about your CAC, your customer acquisition cost, and really knowing your LTV to CAC, which is your lifetime value, how much your customers are worth to you over the course of their life with you. Versus the CAC, the customer acquisition cost is really an important tool to know how you can market. I mean, there are 18 different marketing channels available to this b2b companies 18 different ways of doing it. And to give you an idea of how big that is. Outbound is just one of those ways. And that includes emails calls, LinkedIn, DMS, Twitter, DMS, all of that is just one of these marketing channels out there, there’s a lot out there. And one of the one of the things we need to make sure of is that we’re identifying the three to five for us that work really well for our industry for our market for our time a lot, and then for our budget, and do that, because you’re not going to do all eight. But let’s do the ones that actually fit for us. And that’s that’s where clients can really see a great uplift is when they start to implement, implement and optimize those three to five channels that work really well for them. Yeah,

Ryan Staley 12:14

totally agree. So what do you think about like, the future of SEO? Because I know you mentioned that earlier. And what I’m talking about is specifically as it relates to a lot of search traffic and pulled away from Google for towards these large language models. You know, what’s your take on that?

Matt Wolach  12:34

Yeah, I mean, I think every SEO is always going to have a place. I mean, it’s it people are always looking for we’ve been trained for the last 20 years that if you have a problem, just look it up, figure it out. And so it’s always going to be there. And so I think we have to figure out, how are we going to evolve as it changes, obviously, with AI, now we can create a lot more content a lot quicker, we can get our reach a lot bigger, if we do it the right way. We have to be smart about it. We don’t want to just think like, oh, I just put a couple of words into some tool, and it spits out a bunch of articles for me. I’m good to go. Right. I think we have to be smart around that. And that’s why I’m glad you’re leading the way to ensure that organizations are doing it the right way. Getting that scale getting that impact, while still making sure that it’s right. It’s quality, it’s a good thing for them. And so I I think that technology is fantastic. We just can’t use it blindly without fully understanding it. Because I think we’re gonna lose. I think Google is getting smarter about that. I think other algorithms are getting smarter about that we need to make sure that we are head of the curve and not just using technology hoping that oh, that’s gonna be our bacon saver. Right that we’re getting.

Ryan Staley 13:44

So true. So true. So we’re just about up on time, I guess like looking forward? What do you see is the single biggest mistake of founders when it comes to leveraging lead gen moving forward? And then what are the biggest opportunities?

Matt Wolach  14:02

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest mistake is just doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. Sometimes we hear oh, I heard about this company that did this amazing thing, I’m going to start doing that. Well, that company is 10x your size, or less than 10x. Lower than you, you know. So if you do the wrong thing at the wrong time, it’s not going to work. What Coca Cola is doing right now is not going to be the thing that you need to do. Obviously, that’s an extreme example. But we need to make sure it fits for us of where we are in our lifecycle of our market of what we can do ourselves or the type of expertise we can bring in. And I think so many times we’re making mistakes on Legion just thinking like, Hey, I heard this was good, let’s do it. And it’s not the right way to do it. We need to be smarter about it. We need to plan it out. We need to be organized. And then we once we have a process and a plan, things can go really well.

Ryan Staley 14:54

Social, social. Well now we’re up on time. We’re can people find you? Where can they find more about Excellus? And then we’ll wrap things up.

Matt Wolach  15:02

Yeah, for sure. So I’m really active on LinkedIn. So Matt Wolach Is my name and it’s ma TT W O L ACH. You can also find me at Matt We have a lot of cool giveaways, including a scorecard. I mentioned it last time, but you can go download that scorecard actually see how you compare to the metrics that matter and benchmarks so that you can see what you need to fix. I

Ryan Staley 15:21

Love that man. Matt, thanks for being on the show. Again. It was awesome having a part two with you. And thanks for being on man. You’re welcome.

Matt Wolach 15:29

Thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun, right?